Unfounded Accusations

Once again, we have been accused of writing things contrary to Christianity, yet there has been no evidence offered.

This time it happened at Patriactionary on a post about the Darwin Catholics brouhaha at Dalrock’s.

Men often disagree with other men. This is how we interact and we find ways to work it out. I took issue with some of the words electricangel1978 used in his post at Patriactionary. Actually I agree with him on many things, and although he disagrees with DarwinCatholic, it also appeared that he was defending him. These interactions between men are minor things and we work it out through a bit of posturing and challenging, sometimes in a spirited exchange. This is the way of men and it works well… that is until and unless a woman sticks her nose in and mucks it up.

This post is to show how one woman can muck it up with uncalled for escalation and personal attack. A dissection of the discussion will show where it went bad.

7man commented:

“We, the Papists at Patriactionary, now take up the cudgel in support of Mr. DC.”.
Although I am Catholic, you don’t speak for me. I disagree with DC, so by your association with him and his lack of care for other men, women and children, I therefore also disagree with you.

“Sir, you hit the jackpot.”
I have no idea whether this is true or not, given the lack of evidence.

CL also commented referring to the original post and obviously took issue with the description of Dalrock as a heretic:

heretic Dalrock
At least Dalrock doesn’t have his head up his arse.

“All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.”

Svar jumped in (notice the leap of logic and the non sequitor):

@ CL
But DarwinCatholic is doing something. He’s being a good Catholic and popping out kids and raising them Catholic. Not everyone has the time for MRM.

7man interjects to try and make the point that we must realize the situation and not hide and ignore it:

What will the trad-cons do when the world invades their enclaves?
DarwinCatholic and Dietrich Bonhoeffer
[embedded YouTube video] “Bob Chapman – The National intel Report – 10 April 2012

CL responds:

@ Svar
But DarwinCatholic is doing something. He’s being a good Catholic and popping out kids and raising them Catholic. Not everyone has the time for MRM.

While that appears to be true (notwithstanding his feminist wife), it doesn’t preclude his acknowledging the problem in a bigger way than he does – if for no other reason than to save himself, although willingly ignoring injustice to save one’s self (so one hopes) doesn’t seem a very Christian attitude, does it. The world will intrude on him as it has intruded on and all but destroyed the enclave of the family. He seems to think himself immune.

CL posts again, quoting herself and adding to further expound upon her previous comment:

willingly ignoring injustice to save one’s self (so one hopes) doesn’t seem a very Christian attitude
It’s also unwise.

First they came for the communists,
and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a Jew.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

Svar pontificates:

If the world invades trad-con enclaves, we’re screwed. Oh well. The Christians in early Rome and the Roman Catholics in Constantinople were screwed. The Catholic Church has completely died out in North Africa. There is always the next life.

Look, blogging about no-fault isn’t going to do anything. There are enough people who do that; not everyone has to be on board. We can’t fight Leviathan, the beast will have to die on it’s own.

DC’s strategy is the best and the most productive. So it’s not a guaranteed success. Can you name me one strategy that is?

Look, I could care less about the MRM. I have learned that group is full of individuals that are against my beliefs and values(the Oak incident). I couldn’t give a fuck about what happens to shits like that. So what can I do? I can join groups that do share my beliefs and values like the local Republicans, the Catholic League, or League of the South. Those groups are more likely to actually do something.

CL responds:

@ Svar
I’m not saying everyone needs to do the same thing, but his refusal to see what is right at his own gate is quite astounding. Take up a sword (of one sort of another) or perish – or maybe “take up a sword and perish” but at least die on your feet.

As I just said on the post 7man linked above, different people have different skills and education is an important part of the process. That doesn’t mean DC has to do exactly what others are doing but he does need to realise that his enclave will be attacked. By pointing this out to him, we are fighting for him.

7man responds:

@Svar
“If the world invades trad-con enclaves, we’re screwed. Oh well.”

So we are screwed then.
“Let us eat and drink; for to morrow we shall die.”

Kathy (katmadutu) has taken a strong dislike to me (and CL) and refutes and disagrees with either of us whenever she can, using shaming language and accusations while agreeing with and defending anyone we disagree with. Kathy comments:

DC is a good (practicing) Catholic who adheres to the tenets of the faith. He does not in my opinion show a lack of care for other people, or children. From reading what he writes I think he he cares very much.

Young man in his mid to late thirties it would seem with a handful of kids and
a good wife. Leading by example and bringing his children up to love God and to be good people.

He also understands why Jesus associated with outcasts and sinners… Many people don’t seem to understand why and often use that fact to justify hanging out with unsavoury people or for instance reading their often sinful writings, that lead them away from God and to the secular.. (they stop praying and going to Church for instance) We as fallen beings will not be edified by such stuff. If you lay down with dogs you get up with fleas, as the saying goes.

DC says:
“Jesus didn’t spend time only with “outcasts” nor did he spend time with them only because they were outcasts, but he was starkly different from many of the establishment religious authorities in that he saw those who were considered outcasts as being worth taking his message to in the first place. What was radical about his spending time with outcasts was not that he advocated in favor of what made them outcasts (Up with prostitution! Up with tax collecting!) but that he ignored their outcast status and preached to all — the elites, the outcasts, and the in between — considering all people as capable of receiving his message and being saved through his sacrifice.
This is why a focus on “Jesus spent time with outcasts” can end up leading one astray. Jesus didn’t come to pick out a group of “good people” or even “interesting people to hang out with” on the basis of their being outcasts. Rather, Jesus came to present a message. He presented it to everyone, outcast or not, and he challenged everyone: Come and follow me. ”

Unfortunately many are not following Christ today, and are dancing to the beat of a different drum. Usually their own.

Now here is where it gets wacky. It was a civil exchange with no personal attacks, only disagreement about opinions. But Kathy must be at a loss to think of logical rational ways to disagree. Therefore she begins attacks on character while making unfounded accusations and attempting to ridicule. It could have continued as it was but that was not what Kathy wanted:

“Look, I could care less about the MRM. I have learned that group is full of individuals that are against my beliefs and values(the Oak incident). I couldn’t give a fuck about what happens to shits like that. So what can I do? I can join groups that do share my beliefs and values like the local Republicans, the Catholic League, or League of the South. Those groups are more likely to actually do something.”

Exactly Svar! Well said!

For some strange reason there are a few people out there sitting on their arse’s blogging , thinking that they are making some sort of a difference.. Deluded individuals.

CL and 7man on the other hand are right out there helping others and making a difference. They are just not sitting on their backsides , analyzing and finding fault .No siree!

“although willingly ignoring injustice to save one’s self (so one hopes) doesn’t seem a very Christian attitude”

Nor does willingly ignoring God’s COMMANDMENTS and not going to Mass every Sunday.

Pot? Kettle ? Ring a bell.

To which CL responds:

 @ Kathy

What are you doing exactly, aside from making snide remarks like this one directed at me for the fact that months ago I said I hadn’t been to Mass? How about you take a look at the beam in your own eye? You are attacking those who write and don’t “do something”, which is what you are “doing”.

Kathy responds with more shaming, talking about herself, and classic concern troll tactics:

What are you doing to help others CL???. You criticize DC. What are you doing apart from talk talk talk talking?
.
Be interested to know, Talk’s cheap.

. I look after my husband and kids.

Help out in the business. Am an advocate for autistic kids trying to secure more government funding for kids on the spectrum (I have as you know an autistic son)

I pray… For you and your girls and 7man too. Still.. Hard to believe? When is the last time that you prayed for me.?

I Attend Mass every Sunday. It’s a sin not to go to Mass on Sunday.. Okay I am not perfect either, AS YOU WELL KNOW, but I do know that it is a mortal sin not to go to mass on Sunday. “Can’t be arsed” just don’t cut it CL.

DC IS making a difference, bringing up his 5 kids to love God and be good people.

You should know that all is for naught without God, CL.

Yep I play hardball. And, I don’t let up. Particularly when I care..

7man addresses the accusation:

 @Kathy
“You answer my questions and I will quite happily answer yours.”

Using that order allows you to sit in judgment and there is no basis for CL needing to answer your questions. A passing comment about Mass attendance 6 months ago seems to have been cemented in your mind.

Catholic News Flash: Most people eventually have either a large crisis of faith or a small crisis of faith. Growth occurs from testing. Yet for those that come out the other side, their faith is stronger. You seem to believe in the absence of redemption after testing.

Yet Catholics believe in confession to a priest acting in personae Christi.

Given this basic tenant, why does CL need to confess her sins to Kathy, when she already has done what Catholics are taught to do?

Canecaldo weighs in with the accusation that we are transgressive:

I don’t think Kathy is right to call out CL like that. DC doesn’t need that sort of defense.

OTOH, I can’t remember when I’ve ever seen the Gospel from CL or 7man, but I can’t count the times they’ve written things that transgressed it. I also don’t understand why it’s bad form for Svar to come to Kathy’s defense, but expected that 7man should come to CL’s.

It’s all prideful and unbecoming.

Kathy offers another empty accusation and the implication that we are not “real Catholics”:

“Yet it is true that much of what we write is not explicitly based on churchian teaching.”

What you write is not at all based on Catholic/ Christian teaching either.

Yet you call yourself a Catholic… Very puzzling indeed.

And Kathy throws in a jab at our personal circumstances for good measure:

Are you married 7man. Nope?

Then you and CL are nothing more than good friends.

Please I ask you once again, do not whiteknight. CL is not some little demure wallflower. She is quite vocal in her opinions, is quite intelligent and can speak for herself.

Cat got her tongue.

Canecaldo joins her in the ‘you’re not qualified to talk’ camp:

It’s a common accusation from Christians–that is, the body of Christ–but you won’t take the correction? Well, there’s one for starters. You’re “churchian” epithet doesn’t dissuade me that you are excluded from the admonishment that we are all to submit, one to another; the special relationship of husbands and wives excluded.

Of which, I gather, you and CL do not partake.

7man points out the silliness of such a tactic:

@Kathy & canecaldo

Surely you understand that although the Bible contains truth, not all truth is contained in the Bible. Knowledge evolves and as long as it is not contrary to Catholic (and/or Biblical) teaching there is no problem.

Also surely you understand that before marriage a man claims a woman as part of the process. If I remember correctly, Joseph stood by Mary and defended her while they were betrothed.

Kathy retorts:

You are not married you are divorced 7man. You have been quite public about this.

Unless both you and CL obtain annulments then you cannot marry in the Church.

You are free of course to marry in a civil ceremony but it will not be recognized by the Church.

So no, your ‘relationship’ is nothing like Joseph’s and Mary’s at all.

Will S. then closes the thread while indiscriminately blaming all:

@ Kathy, CL: You both started this, with CL’s unnecessary and uncalled for ‘head up the arse’ comment, and Kathy’s unnecessary and uncalled for swipe at CL and 7man in response. [CL: Hold up, my 'head up the arse' comment was in reference to Darwin Catholic, about whom the post was written, and had absolutely nothing to do with Kathy, who hadn't arrived at that point and whose swipe at me was unprovoked and not a response to that comment.] And then, aided by 7man and Svar, as always (yeah, I blame both of you guys, too), it escalated.

Despite the fact that you two dislike each other, I actually like and get along with both of you, and I refuse to take sides in your damn disputes. But I blame both of you for being unable to bite your tongues and be civil. You’re both acting childish, and immature; you’re both responsible for these constant disputes. Seems you and your male allies can’t be on a thread together without this bullshit happening.

But no more; it will stop, now.

And you two will not fight with each other, nor will you fight with either of your opposites’ male allies, or start anything that gets them fighting each other.

Else I will ban both of you two. I’m serious.

No more. I’m counting on both of you – on all of you – to act as the mature adults I know you are and are capable of being.

This bullshit ends, now.

As does this discussion thread. No more comments from the other male Patriactionaries added to this comment either, please. (Sorry about this EA, but it got out of hand; it was necessary.) Thank you.

And at the end of the day, where is the evidence? What is it they think we need to correct? Our detractors are free to find some of our errant writings and come have this battle on our blog, rather than derailing other people’s threads; yet they don’t, resorting instead to personal attacks, sarcasm, and sneering digs at us on other people’s blogs. Consider this post a call to these people to put up or shut up.

Others piled on to support Kathy’s character assassination and the baseless accusations became rampant. We have written thousands of words and NO ONE had come up with any credible explanation of where anything we have written is counter to Catholic/Christian/ Biblical teaching. If there are so many transgressions, as canecaldo states, surely someone can come up with two or three examples.

CL: Over the last months we have been accused many times of the same thing – of being counter-Christian – yet there is still no witness offered. Even with that all said, this is a blog of ideas and exploration, not a Ministry – read the ‘about’ section, that’s what it’s there for – yet we do take care not to lose sight of God in what we write. Does that mean we never err? Of course not; but if, as our critics claim, there are innumerable examples of the transgressions of which we have been accused, why can’t anyone point to even one in all these months?

Again, what have we written that is contrary to Catholic teaching? Our situation does not negate what we write as un-Christian, un-Catholic or anti-Biblical. Exactly what basis is there for the unsubstantiated accusations? Put up or shut up.

The Genesis Model for Subverting Humanity

There are two primary things that must be subverted to change society:

1) Masculine men as Fathers
1)The Church

The method is simple and is outlined in the book of Genesis in the Bible. The means is via women.

The basic plan is to convince women that they have the knowledge of good and evil so that men will listen to women and abide by what women dictate. Thus women should assume a greater role in matters of morality within the church and within a marriage and the outcome will be similar to that of Genesis.

Shafts of Light

Sometimes things are said at mass that are exactly what I needed to hear – oddly specific as well. I think that it’s not so much that sometimes it’s more relevant to our lives than others – it’s always relevant, but sometimes we are more open to it or we have gained a little bit of understanding that we didn’t have before, little shafts of light into the darkness. This stood out especially for me today:

Whenever I speak, I cry out
proclaiming violence and destruction.
So the word of the LORD has brought me
insult and reproach all day long.
But if I say, “I will not mention his word
or speak anymore in his name,”
his word is in my heart like a fire,
a fire shut up in my bones.
I am weary of holding it in;
indeed, I cannot. (Jeremiah 20:8-9, NIV)

In the homily Fr spoke of the Christian’s calling to decry the age and it made me think about what I do here, how sometimes I wonder if I’m just terribly gloomy or depressing, but I calls it as I sees it and if what I see is that we are causing our own death and destruction, then by God I’ll point it out as best I can. It’s not to be self-righteous or to appear pious or any sort of ambition like that, I just can’t seem to stop myself. Lord knows I struggle all day with my weaknesses, blindnesses and all. When I try to keep it in, it is “a fire shut up in my bones” and I just can’t do that any more.

So, this was something I needed to hear today and it has helped to bolster me while simultaneously filling me with the dread of the test. But I can’t even chicken out of the tests any more. Also in this passage is the feeling of wishing He had chosen someone else. Now obviously our situation is not so dramatic as we are not prophets as Jeremiah, but it is human to wish for an easier path through life than we often get, and even the greatest among us struggle at times. It may or may not seem a comfort I suppose, but it is what it is.

And to think, I had to force myself out the door to go to church today. The extent of my own struggle is that even though I never regret going to mass but do regret not going, it’s still a temptation to overcome inertia and avoidance.